Initial Endgame Thoughts
Apr. 27th, 2019 07:33 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
silversandbeaI'm actually seeing it again on Sunday - and having a chance to talk about it afterwards, as opposed to just furtively whispering about it outside the theater, getting a lyft and collapsing into bed. But for now, some disjointed thoughts:
I cannot stress this enough but it should have been Clint. Like, is he going to explain to his family that when they died, he became an international murder hobo of mystery? That seems awkward. Every single scene that involved Clint afterwards I was imagining it would have been better with Natasha in it.
Plus, then, it seems like the Soul Gem just wants you to give it the a Strong Female Character.
Or even, Clint makes the sacrifice, but it's not him that the soul gem takes. It's the possibility of his family ever coming back. I'm not super into fridging the wife and kids back home, but if you're going to have a 'fridging women' macguffin, make it count.
(I loved that Nat got to have a bunch of close platonic relationships with men, though. I have an old half-written fic from like 2012 that's just a Nat character study, maybe I'll revisit and post it somewhere)
Five years is a long time to live without someone, especially after a tragedy. People change, people grow. Imagine your toddler suddenly being a seven year-old. Imagine finally letting yourself move on, fall in love, get married, and then your previous family comes back. Imagine transitioning, or coming out in that period. I wonder if the MCU is ever really going to address that (here's hoping the fanfic at least takes a go at it).
I think their stance on the rules of time travel was that 'time travel makes no sense, it works exactly the way we decide it does and has no real internal rules or reasons', which in some ways is refreshing, but also means that I don't even think it's worth figuring out what the 'canon' version of what happens in the other timelines
I honestly felt like they pulled back from having too many Steve/Bucky interactions after Civil War because The Awkward Sharon Kiss did not work, so I didn't have too many expectations in that regard, but I was still a little peeved that Bucky didn't even get a goodbye scene (mentally telling myself that in this timeline, Steve stopped Hydra from infiltrating SHIELD and saved Bucky much earlier, but Bucky still doesn't age because reasons, or maybe there's an old Bucky out there somewhere, IDK.
(Because, can you imagine otherwise? Steve trying to enjoy his own personal happiness while knowing that Hydra is out there, knowing what Bucky is going through, and just choosing not to do anything? Choosing not to try? I can't.)
The scenes in the past worked really well - if you're going to be doing something that involves this much time and emotional investment, you can actually bank on them and use them. Though, the second they gave Tony a kid I thought he was going to die, and then when they let Tony interact with his dad, I thought he really was going to die.
I might have squeaked for like, three minutes after Cap picked up Mjolnir. The entire theater clapped at that point. I think this film really solidified that I am still a ridiculous Captain America fangirl.
It's not like the film really needed to be any longer, but I could have used more Carol Danvers (PUNCHING A MOTHERFUCKING SPACESHIP, AS IS HER RIGHT), and more Wakanda. I mean, they had one of the stones, too - it would have made sense to visit and even maybe talk to the previous king. That would have had more emotional weight for me than the Asgard scene.
The all the woman lining up for a second to help each other out would have worked a little better if this film had let any of the women interact with each other (with the exception of Nebula and Gamora). I mean, really now.
I cannot stress this enough but it should have been Clint. Like, is he going to explain to his family that when they died, he became an international murder hobo of mystery? That seems awkward. Every single scene that involved Clint afterwards I was imagining it would have been better with Natasha in it.
Plus, then, it seems like the Soul Gem just wants you to give it the a Strong Female Character.
Or even, Clint makes the sacrifice, but it's not him that the soul gem takes. It's the possibility of his family ever coming back. I'm not super into fridging the wife and kids back home, but if you're going to have a 'fridging women' macguffin, make it count.
(I loved that Nat got to have a bunch of close platonic relationships with men, though. I have an old half-written fic from like 2012 that's just a Nat character study, maybe I'll revisit and post it somewhere)
Five years is a long time to live without someone, especially after a tragedy. People change, people grow. Imagine your toddler suddenly being a seven year-old. Imagine finally letting yourself move on, fall in love, get married, and then your previous family comes back. Imagine transitioning, or coming out in that period. I wonder if the MCU is ever really going to address that (here's hoping the fanfic at least takes a go at it).
I think their stance on the rules of time travel was that 'time travel makes no sense, it works exactly the way we decide it does and has no real internal rules or reasons', which in some ways is refreshing, but also means that I don't even think it's worth figuring out what the 'canon' version of what happens in the other timelines
I honestly felt like they pulled back from having too many Steve/Bucky interactions after Civil War because The Awkward Sharon Kiss did not work, so I didn't have too many expectations in that regard, but I was still a little peeved that Bucky didn't even get a goodbye scene (mentally telling myself that in this timeline, Steve stopped Hydra from infiltrating SHIELD and saved Bucky much earlier, but Bucky still doesn't age because reasons, or maybe there's an old Bucky out there somewhere, IDK.
(Because, can you imagine otherwise? Steve trying to enjoy his own personal happiness while knowing that Hydra is out there, knowing what Bucky is going through, and just choosing not to do anything? Choosing not to try? I can't.)
The scenes in the past worked really well - if you're going to be doing something that involves this much time and emotional investment, you can actually bank on them and use them. Though, the second they gave Tony a kid I thought he was going to die, and then when they let Tony interact with his dad, I thought he really was going to die.
I might have squeaked for like, three minutes after Cap picked up Mjolnir. The entire theater clapped at that point. I think this film really solidified that I am still a ridiculous Captain America fangirl.
It's not like the film really needed to be any longer, but I could have used more Carol Danvers (PUNCHING A MOTHERFUCKING SPACESHIP, AS IS HER RIGHT), and more Wakanda. I mean, they had one of the stones, too - it would have made sense to visit and even maybe talk to the previous king. That would have had more emotional weight for me than the Asgard scene.
The all the woman lining up for a second to help each other out would have worked a little better if this film had let any of the women interact with each other (with the exception of Nebula and Gamora). I mean, really now.
here from mcu_cosmic!
Date: 2019-04-27 04:12 pm (UTC)OMFG, "international murder hobo of mystery." (And if we're talking about people having things to repent, Nat apparently spent the past five years trying to hold everything together, while Clint....went off and did murder therapy. And Mexican and Japanese victims are specified in the movie.) I kept thinking, while Clint was getting heroic things to do, "It should be Nat, it should be Nat, it should be Nat." Particularly in the late all-women little bit where they directly called back to two of her IW lines! But it's like once she's dead, she disappears. Her sacrifice is simultaneously required, and weightless.
Plus, then, it seems like the Soul Gem just wants you to give it the a Strong Female Character.
LOL they could put up a sign. "Please throw one Strong Female Character off the cliff in exchange for Soul Stone." Glowy Red Guy could go on a coffee break.
I have an old half-written fic from like 2012 that's just a Nat character study, maybe I'll revisit and post it somewhere
Yesss! We need Nat fic right now.
Five years is a long time to live without someone, especially after a tragedy
They've been insistent that the Spiderman moie takes place 'immediately' after Endgame, but people have been theorizing it must be pre-Endgame or concurrent, otherwise it doesn't make a lot of sense. It seems like they're just ploughing right on ahead though.
I honestly felt like they pulled back from having too many Steve/Bucky interactions after Civil War because The Awkward Sharon Kiss did not work, so I didn't have too many expectations in that regard, but I was still a little peeved that Bucky didn't even get a goodbye scene
I'm really kind of surprised more reviewers aren't mentioning this, given how they loved kind of tee-heeing about the intense bond Steve and Bucky had. But yeah, even though everything Steve did in CW was for Bucky, they didn't really relate in that movie -- it felt much less intense than in TWS -- and then after that stupid back-to-the-freezer scene, they don't seem to interact much at all. Steve might have visited him, but that's all offscreen, and while a lot of character development takes place "offscreen" in the team movies, the Steve/Bucky bond seemed to just dissolve.
the second they gave Tony a kid I thought he was going to die, and then when they let Tony interact with his dad, I thought he really was going to die
I thought Nat was going to die for good when I heard her say "I had nothing and now I have this family" in the trailer. :-/ After all the emphasis on found families, with the Avenger team itself as a big example, they really wound up falling back on nuclear families as the ideal.
The all the woman lining up for a second to help each other out would have worked a little better if this film had let any of the women interact with each other (with the exception of Nebula and Gamora). I mean, really now.
SERIOUSLY. Why did Okoye get such prominent billing on the posters, and then she has about two minutes of screentime? Did her part get left on the cutting room floor? And I was really hoping for some Nebula/Nat or Carol/Nat interaction. But instead she talked with Steve, and then Clint, and then she was dead.
no subject
Date: 2019-04-27 08:09 pm (UTC)LOL, yes! It definitely should have been Clint.
The all the woman lining up for a second to help each other out would have worked a little better if this film had let any of the women interact with each other
Agreed. I like that we got that moment, but it felt like too little, too late.
Re: here from mcu_cosmic!
Date: 2019-04-27 08:09 pm (UTC)Bwahahahaha!
Re: here from mcu_cosmic!
Date: 2019-04-29 03:47 pm (UTC)Regarding the reviewer's reactions to Steve and Bucky, I think that's the difference between seeing queerness as a joke and as an actual possibility - the reviewers that were joking about Steve and Bucky never saw it as an actual possibility and weren't emotionally invested with it, so they don't mind the lack of it. Not that I ever thought that Marvel was going to make Steve/Bucky canon, but cutting all emotions in an act of no homo seems awfully dated at this point.
Upon a second viewing it occurred to me that for most of those characters - Nat had been their leader, holding everything together for five years. Tony had retreated to spend time with the nuclear family unit. Emotionally, the types of funeral scenes should have been reversed. Nat should have gotten the large Avengers send-off (with the people that they explicitly say should be her family), while Tony should have gotten the quieter scene with just his family (did Wanda ever have any significant interactions with Nat? That seemed like an odd choice for a Clint feelings receptacle)
Re: here from mcu_cosmic!
Date: 2019-04-29 04:09 pm (UTC)That is depressingly highly plausible. Ugh.
Upon a second viewing it occurred to me that for most of those characters - Nat had been their leader, holding everything together for five years. Tony had retreated to spend time with the nuclear family unit. Emotionally, the types of funeral scenes should have been reversed. Nat should have gotten the large Avengers send-off (with the people that they explicitly say should be her family), while Tony should have gotten the quieter scene with just his family
omfg
you're right
you're absolutely right
I AM SO ANGRY
ALSO OMG DID YOU SEE THE INTERVIEW THE SCREENWRITERS DID?
MARKUS Tony gets a funeral. Natasha doesn’t. That’s partly because Tony’s this massive public figure and she’s been a cipher the whole time. It wasn’t necessarily honest to the character to give her a funeral. The biggest question about it is what Thor raises there on the dock. “We have the Infinity Stones. Why don’t we just bring her back?”
McFEELY But that’s the everlasting exchange. You bring her back, you lose the stone.
NATASHA. IS. A CIPHER? THE WOMAN THAT GOT ALL THAT BLAZING PUBLICITY AT THE END OF TWS. DO THEY EVEN REMEMBER THE FUCKING MOVIE THEY GOT FAMOUS FOR.
(did Wanda ever have any significant interactions with Nat? That seemed like an odd choice for a Clint feelings receptacle)
Haaah. Well, you see her and Nat at the beginning of AoU in the group training scene, and then Nat is kind of reprimanding her at the beginning of the IW re Vision, saying "I thought we made a deal." Other than that, I think Wanda was there because 1) she was an Understanding Female Figure and 2) Vision died (never mind her TWIN, Pietro who?).
Re: here from mcu_cosmic!
Date: 2019-04-29 04:17 pm (UTC)I hadn't seen it before and yeah . . . that's not how relationships work? It's not like Tony's funeral was open to the public with a lot of people mourning his loss (which would be a choice, I guess), it was the Avengers, and a few Avenger-adjacent people. And Nat didn't seem like she was an unknown or even that emotionally distant with the people she interacts with - she seems closer to most of the other avengers than Tony is (and considering Tony to be emotionally available is, uh, questionable).
Re: here from mcu_cosmic!
Date: 2019-04-29 04:35 pm (UTC)McFEELY Chris and I wrote a master document while we were shooting “Civil War,” and one of the things we were interested in exploring is, remember the What If comics? Well, this is our what if. If you lost, Thor becomes fat. Natasha becomes a shut-in. Steve becomes depressed. Tony gets on with his life. Hulk is a superhero.
MARKUS Clint becomes a murdering maniac. When we were spitballing for “Endgame,” we started with, Thor’s on a mission of vengeance. And then we were like, he was on a mission of vengeance in the last movie. This is all this guy ever does! And fails, all the time. Let’s drive him into a wall and see what happens.
McFEELY He just got drunk and fat.
LIKE HOOOOOOOOOOLY FUCK, FUCK YOU ASSHOLES.
And like other people are already saying, HOW IS NAT A FUCKING SHUT-IN. She is apparently holding what remains of the Avengers together at HQ, while all the men fuck off! Like allofthefeelings said on Tumblr "most of the men of the Avengers ignoring their responsibilities to wallow while Val took care of Asgard, Okoye took care of Wakanda, Carol took care of space, and Natasha took care of making sure the universe was working together."
Re: here from mcu_cosmic!
Date: 2019-04-30 01:28 pm (UTC)Though, wow. Even without that, the ha, Thor got fat in an interview seems even worse than seeing it on screen.
no subject
Date: 2019-04-30 01:50 pm (UTC)Re: here from mcu_cosmic!
Date: 2019-05-11 01:41 am (UTC)I've been a bit "if I were to ever write a fixfic" about this, and never knew that they actually explicitly pointed it out? On the one hand, thanks for the quote, but on the other, did they even think about their own movie? The phrase "a soul for a soul" is just vague enough to immediately seem deliberate, and if it weren't for having seen the movie and knowing that we can't trust this group to be actually respectful, that quote would just confirm that, as soon as Thanos was defeated again and the stones set to be returned, Steve could chuck that one off the mountain with extreme prejudice and wake up in the water with Natasha beside him. Or Clint if they could bring themselves to let him take steps toward forgiving himself.
Sam
Re: here from mcu_cosmic!
Date: 2019-05-12 07:09 pm (UTC)You know, it'd still suck, but Nat could have sacrificed her relationships with everyone else in the avengers - still lived, but they'd have no memory or emotions towards her. It'd still be painful and a legitimate reason for her to disappear into the sunset after the movie, and it would bank a lot more on the fact that for the first act, it's clear that Natasha is holding everybody else together.